Season 3, Episode 18: Autonomy, Choice and Joy in Movement

Welcome back to The Gut Show! I'm your host, Erin Judge, and today's episode is with a personal trainer, Barb. She's a fellow Nashville professional, but I've connected with her the most through social media. What I love about Barb is that she takes a non-diet approach to personal training into fitness, which you might think do these actually go together? What does diet has to do with fitness?

But diet culture is deeply influenced by and influences fitness culture, and a lot of trainers really lean into that and prey on that versus encourage movement in a way that is intuitive and feels good, and is joyful, which is something that Barb and I talked about in today's episode. I want you to come into the episode with an open mind to the conversation and sort of think through like what we talked about what that really means to you, because the value I think of this conversation, something I got out of it personally, as we were recording, was a better understanding of what movement means to me, what exercise means to me, and how to frame even my exercise goals and plans and how I view and approach that in a different way, which is going to be more giving to me and a form of self care versus a form of punishment or another to do on the list or whatever it may be.

Very excited for you to listen today's episode, and if there is any thought that comes up, please join us in The Gut Community on Facebook and then let us know like what you're thinking or you can always post on Instagram and post on your stories, tag myself at @erinjudgerd as well as Barb @nondiet_trainer, you'll find all of those links in the show notes and let us know what your what you thought what questions you had or what you would add to the conversation.

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Erin Judge: Hey, Barb, thank you so much for being here, I'm really excited for our conversation! I want to get started with just your story. So how did you become the non-diet trainer?

Barb Puzanovova: I'll kind of scoot back maybe, maybe a few years, but also a little bit of background. I like to clarify that a lot of people get into becoming a trainer because they have maybe some experience with like sports and athletics, and they like really fell in love with that. That is not my story. I was just like, a kid that generally was kind of active, but like, wasn't really, you would probably find me in high school, like writing poetry and being like an indie artsy kid. I didn't really do a whole lot of team sports. I think I did rec gymnastics, I was a horse girl at some point. All very, very casual and non-competitive involvements in sports and like movement in general. My family was not super wild about movement but we did a lot of stuff together. So I remember like, on Sundays, instead of doing the whole church thing, we would probably just go to like, a trail and go hike, we called it dirt church. And it was really nice, we spent quality time together that way. So that's kind of like my childhood background on movement.

There was never like a time that I had a significantly negative relationship with movement, which I do want to clarify, because I think a lot of us do, I feel like I was kind of stuck in like neutral to positive territory for the most part. Now looking back at it with all that I know, I do think that part of what contributed to that was like my privilege of being able bodied, being thin and being white, you know, being cisgendered, like I had access to a lot of those spaces, and didn't really have a whole lot of like negative or traumatic experiences.

So then I think probably around, maybe high school going into college, that little transitory period, I happened to develop something that I would now recognize as orthorexia. I didn't know what that at the time I thought I was just like, hella committed to health and wellness and, you know, really educating myself and whatever. And around the same time I also started dancing. I kind of danced throughout high school, again, non competitively, nothing too serious. But it was interesting to see my relationship with food and movement, kind of going slightly opposite directions. I'm not saying my relationship with movement was like perfect, and always hunky dory, there was a lot of unlearning to do around my movement practice as well, but for the most part, movement was there for me as like a mental health tool, not to replace therapy, but as a therapeutic process where I noticed there was like a specific memory in high school where I was like, you know, coming back from school, I just like was really anxious and nervous. I didn't feel like I did well on a test that I had that day and so I had a stomach ache and it was interesting to see like, okay, anxiety, stomach ache, body is connected to mind. At the time, I was working in my dance studio, so I like was the only one in the studio, was just kind of cleaning up and getting it ready for the afternoon. And I think for maybe like 30 to 45 minutes, I just like turned on the music and I was just like free dancing in the studio. No one else was there.

I realized at the end of the 45 minutes, like my stomach ache was gone, my mood was lifted and I was like, this is wild. It just like blew my brains that movement could affect my body and my mind in such a quick and immediate way. And so that kind of started, I didn't know that at the time, but it definitely started to lay the groundwork for stuff that I would end up doing later. So throughout college, you know, you're figuring out like, what am I going to do? And so I went through the whole process of, I'm going to be you know, going to med school just like a bajillion other people. Both my parents are MDs so I was like yes, totally going to go that route, gonna go into the research route, etc.

I realized as I was going through school and going through this process, I was spending a ton of time you know, just like exploring movement on my own time. I was going to the gym, I started also taking other women to the gym and being like, hey, here's how you can kind of like get yourself acquainted with weights, like the whole weight section, because it was still primarily like, male dominated and whatever. So it was really cool to see like, hey, that stuff that I think that I'm just doing on the side is really what lights me up.

Eventually, as soon as possible, got certified to be an ace, certified group fitness instructor and then I ended up working at a really, really awesome gym here in Nashville called getFIT615. I worked there for five years, I want to say like almost on the dot to the day. And it was incredible, because during that entire time that I was there, I was never, ever encouraged, or it was just never part of our protocol to take weight, to take body measurements, to comment on body changes whether people got more muscular, were bigger or smaller, or whatever, it was just like, we're going to focus on the movement, and we're going to focus on how you're feeling during the movement. Not only is that really great information as a trainer in general to like, unpack, like, hey, like, are your knees hurting? Are you feeling in the muscles that we hopefully want you to feel it in? But also just like how are you feeling? Does this scare you? Does this feel enjoyable to you? Do you hate every second of this? How can we respond to that?

I think that was a really key moment for me to go okay, this is something that I not only absolutely love, but I also can envision myself doing this as a full time gig. So even though I started training, I'm gonna say in 2015, so I was still in college at the time. Fantastic college job, super fun. Then around I want to say like 2019 2020, I graduated in 2017, so a little bit later, I was like, okay, we're doing this. And so in 2020, I took a Instagram course, with the movement Maestro Shante Cofield, she's incredible, and I officially changed my little Instagram handle to @nondiet_trainer and I was like, oh, this is happening. I specifically changed it to non-diet trainer because I wanted like, I didn't even want to take the anti diet approach. it was just like, hey, we're just not, that's not even going to be relevant to our training, per se. And I tell clients that I know that sometimes trainers can like kind of have some wiggle room with like nutritional guidelines of like, hey, some general guidelines with food or general meal prep or something like that and then some trainers definitely take it outside of their scope of practice with assigning meal plans and all that stuff that is definitely not allowed, but they do it anyway. And so I was like, you know, what I want to really own and talk about the movement piece, because that's one, within my scope of practice, and to my passion. If someone wants to talk about food cool, I will always refer them out. And for the most part, I'll kind of refer to food of like sharing recipes or foods we really enjoy because that's always super fun. I always have found really great recipes from clients and vice versa, restaurants that we've enjoyed, or just making sure that they've eaten enough food beforehand, making sure that they have the nourishment that they need to do the stuff that we're about to engage in. So that's really the only ways that I really talk about food, which is funny to look back on. Maybe it's part of just my story of just like I spent years and years thinking too much about food and at this point, it's like, hey, let's maybe simplify it a little bit, at least on my end, and focus on the movement and the present moment and just like being here, instead of feeling like I'm going to be that kind of trainer who's going to be like judging your food and shaming you for your food choices. It’s like no, I'm not gonna micromanage you with that, you're an adult and you get to make choices that feel good for you. So that's how I've arrived at being the non-diet trainer, I feel like it's been kind of step by step, very slow process and now all of a sudden it feels like it's just the right thing.

Erin Judge: That's incredible and I didn't know that much of your story! I came across you from getFIT615, I used to go there as well, one of the best gyms in Nashville for sure! Fun and energetic and I think I remember one big takeaway that I'll never forget from going there, I was already dietitian at the time and already kind of was moving into a bit not really, I wouldn't even call myself like anti diet either, it's just kind of a like I don't I don't care focus on weight. It's not fun and engaging and like, you know, uplifting for me and so I kind of moved away from that even myself, but I remember being there and I forgot what it was, Kate Moore who is the founder and she was the owner at the time, but she would say something about like the thoughts, to reframe thoughts or words, right of, I don't like this, or almost like I want this to be over like those grunts and that feeling and just like reframing it into, like, I get to do one more set, or what am I actually feeling here instead of just like, I don't want to do it, it's like, well, what is the actual feeling? Is it that, like I am struggling to breathe or you know, whatever it was. And I remember those, like little things were such a game changer for me, and I still use that in practice now, in different ways, obviously, with nutrition, but it was just such a big thing that was small but huge.

That kind of goes into my next question. I know that you mentioned you decided not to take a non-diet approach. And it seems like diet and fitness, they shouldn't be as interwoven as they are. You're right, a lot of people were their scope of practice, and even those like sayings, like abs are made in the kitchen. It's like, I think it brings back this thought of like, well, movement is only there for the purpose of making your body look a certain way. And so why did you decide or feel it was important to really remove the diet component and like kind of transition that outcome focus and what does that really look like practically? What if someone's like, I have no idea what it means to work out or move if I'm not thinking about what I can eat and earn, or how my body looks, or you know, all of these different problems.

Barb Puzanovova: And that's so funny. I don't know if until this moment, I mean, I know that there's that connection between diet and exercise, because we're always told, hey, it's as simple as calories in calories out, you just have to move more and eat less blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's always in relation to weight loss. Or if someone's like, well, I feel like now it's changed into well, I'm not doing weight loss, I'm doing fat loss, I'm doing body composition changes. And it's like, hey, it's still kind of the same. It's reminds me of Scooby Doo, you know, where they like, pull the sheets off of the like, ghost or whatever. It's like, hey, it's actually this person. So I feel like it kind of goes hand in hand. And so we're doing these calculations and that's just not at the end of the day how I want to view movement and how I want to teach movement and how I want people to learn movement.

I always go back to watching like a pet or a child moving their bodies, and it's just, they don't move their bodies in the ways that we as adults, move our bodies. Dogs don't like go outside into the yard and like run sprints back and forth for 30 seconds, watch a timer, rest for 30 seconds, and then do it over and over again for you know, eight rounds and then they're gonna be like jumping to the fence for 10 reps. Dogs don't do that, they run around because they want to express joy or stress or frustration or they get the zoomies or when they want to lay down into the sun, they just do that they don't think about how many calories it's burning.

Of course, like once they go back inside, they're like, oh my gosh, I'm hungry, I want to eat something, this is great, I'm gonna have a snack. That's really like what I want us to bring our movement back to and maybe that is why I made that executive decision, even for myself for a bunch of reasons to not really even kind of talk about the food component. And that's not like a nag or anything at trainers that do educate around that because I think there is lots of like re-education or like myths that we need to educate around where it's like, hey, like carbs are not the enemy, etc, etc. Very important science behind that, but I think I wanted to just simplify it and focus just on movement because they're always mentioned together in like the same breath. And like you mentioned, it's kind of like that oh, well, I have to move so that I can you know, eat this thing, or I ate this thing so then I have to move and it's like, oh my gosh, your body is not some like, you know, little equation that we can just kind of like manipulate this, that and the other, our bodies, especially for menstruating individuals, change literally like day to day week to week. It is not the same and its needs are not the same from day to day. And it's like kind of impossible to track it to the exact amount. At some point, it's like, maybe give up the game and being so exhausted and stressed about trying to do that, our bodies are a lot smarter than we think they are.

Erin Judge: Yeah, absolutely. And I think something that people miss is, which I find fascinating as kind of a scientist right as they go through nutrition and a lot of disordered you know, things that are throughout that and studying that, it messes with your mind learning all the science because you do learn the body as like a robot machine when it's it doesn't really work that way and that's just kind of how science can become a bit messy and muddy, it doesn't apply to everyone the same way. But it's so fascinating because when we're looking at exercise, we know it's a good thing, right? It's healthy, exercise is healthy. Anytime you're looking at research on preventing disease, exercise and movement is part of that.

And I think we've pulled it out to mean, well exercise because it results in weight loss is the healthy thing. When if you actually look at research and science, that's not even the thing at all, like the benefits of movement and exercise, which I know we're gonna get into a little bit more, it's like, with your heart, and with your lung capacity, I mean, looking at COVID now, right, it's like going to immune function and the ability to breathe, that has nothing to do with the weight at all. And it's never been shown to be that in research. So if we're thinking about an exercising to earn a doughnut, this morning, or whatever it may be where it's just like such a silly reward when the actual reward is so much better of like, how we're feeling and moving. And I feel like we almost like compromise the real reward for these, like, truly, like things that aren't satisfied, because that How satisfying is it gonna, if you feel like you had to sprint forever to get it?

Barb Puzanovova: Yes, I feel like and I do still see these floating around and always, like throws me off because I'm like, why are we still doing this, but you know, especially around like holiday weekends, or whatever we're there's like this equation of like, if you eat x, y, and z, then know that that's gonna be x amount of burpees. And it's like, wait a minute, first of all, we are ignoring like eye color. I feel like our bodies are like these flesh sacks or like, if they are machines, or like very gooey, gooey machines, like, yes, there are processes that they do. We can study them, we can observe them, but at the same time, like their little like, you will muddle like, we have a general idea of what's happening. And it still can be different from person to person. But I always think about like, yeah, at the end of the day, even if it is true that, you know, a doughnut contains x amount of energy, because that's what I think about like calories. That's a unit of energy. That's literally the definition. And if then I am expending that energy doing movement stuff. Like, yes, that may be true, like I understand, but at the same time, I love that you pointed to like, well, how is that going to be motivating? Because so many of us are, I'll have tons of questions that like how do I get motivated? Like, I'm just not motivated? And I'm like, Well, what's your reason right now, because that reason, it's clearly not a good enough or interesting enough reason. I like to talk about like chasing the carrot instead of running away from the stick, because I feel like, you know, and people might kind of like, have some differing opinions on this. But I'm definitely all for positive reinforcement. I think that our brains work really well, when we actually just are like, it's not even like a mind hacking thing. It's just like understanding human nature, we obviously and like also animal nature, in general, we want more of the nice good things, things that feel generally pleasant things that generally bring us joy, or some sort of reward, or whatever. And I'd rather just focus on that, because I like to use the example of strength training strength training does show that especially in like, people with higher estrogen levels, over time, a lot of us are at a higher risk for osteoporosis. And then at the same time, strength training can come at that super great, right? So I'm like avoiding the risk of getting osteoporosis. If I string train, you know, like, multiple times a week, but I don't do my strength training practice, because I'm like, oh, yeah, pumping iron, let's go strong bones. And later on in like 30 years or whatever, I'm going to decrease my risk of osteoporosis. Like, that's not my main motivating factor. It's a nice little tidbit to know that I'm doing that. But at the same time, I'm like, that's not interesting enough for me. Like, no, no. So a lot of the times I feel like, people just need a better reason for themselves that feels like a short term reward. And I know that those also get kind of like, pushed aside. It's like, that's not a good enough reason you need like a good long term reason. And those are cool to like movement that's sustainable for the rest of your life and thinking about myself as an 80 year old, like I would love to go on walks and just like birdwatch and stuff, that is my vision. Like go to aerobics water aerobics class, I would love that. But at the same time that doesn't like connect with me right now that feels really far off. My brain has a hard time comprehending that And so what I would rather do is again, like focus on the present moment of like, what is my body feeling right now, in this moment? Like, do I feel like, you know, especially in like, you know, when I think about group classes back and get fit, it was like, Oh, I'm like playing with a dog that was there, Emma, she was incredible. She's like licking sweat off your face. And then you're there with like, all of the other people, obviously, pre COVID. But like all these people that were like, high fiving you and like, encouraging you and you have like all this community around you. The music is awesome. And so I'm like, seeing and feeling all these things with all five senses. And it's like that, that feels good enough for me. And in the moment, like, I don't have to wait a week, a month, a year or a decade to like feel those effects. I can just feel them right now. They're accessible to me right now. And I understand that that's not something that we're taught to prioritize in our movement practice. It's always like, especially with weight loss, like intentional weight loss, regardless, if it's, you know, we can talk about the, you know, 95% failure rate, even if you're like, Well, I'm the part of the pack 5% That was successful. It's still like a long term process. It's a lot of mind management, and this and that, and it's like, I don't know, to me, I would much rather focus on like, what is happening right now, like, a lot of my clients within that first month are like, I already feel pretty strong. Like, I already feel like my moods and you know, boosted I always feel like I am like prioritizing my own self care right now, with this practice, I already feel like, you know, I'm getting out of the house and getting more energy. And that's super awesome. I would rather that they feel that as soon as possible. Instead of like, well, we gotta get out this for another six months. And then you'll see you see results. I'm doing air quotes for all the folks listening,

Erin Judge: It doesn't feel good. And I feel like it just takes away the that yeah, that you mentioned, like, the exciting rewards and like, I increased my weight, or, you know, run it for me, it's running runnings always measure with movement, because it to me, it's really challenging, but also I love running, when it's whenever I could do it. And so like training for that, it's like that first run, where it's like, I felt so good, or like, I ran like, faster up the hill, you know, like, that feels so exciting. Versus like, oh, no, like, I'm getting to stand on a scale, you know. And I've been through that I did that in college, like I, you know, went through all of that as well. And like it just, and I did come from sports to where it was like we had a sport goal. So it was like, Can I hit the ball Mark, can I throw the ball better? Can I run between the bases faster. And that was so much more rewarding since working towards something big alongside people cared about. And then moving into college, where it was all about, like weight and how I looked at impressing people, and you know, that just did not go well. So that is interesting. And so that kind of goes into one of the core things that you teach through social media. So follow you for two days, and you'll see the words joyful movement. It's a big part of your work in your practice. What does joyful movement actually mean in relation to events and the things that you've already talked about? And why is this such an important practice or kind of verbiage that you use for your work.

Barb Puzanovova: So there's no official definition, super fun, I almost want to just keep it that way. I also want to say that I'm not the only one that came up with it, or the first one that came up with it. The first time I was kind of introduced to the to the idea of joyful movement as like an official thing was probably through intuitive eating. So that's where it came up for me. And I was like, Oh, this is something that I'm aware of, or I practice in different ways. Particularly for me, it was dance, but joyful movement can look like a lot of different things. I think there's a lot of misconceptions around what it is. And so for me, my definition of joyful movement is like a radical approach to movement that prioritizes your pleasure, your enjoyment, and the present moment. That's what it ultimately ends up for me. There's also like these elements of compassion, flexibility, interoceptive awareness. So being aware of, you know, what your body is telling you of like, hey, you know, like, my heart rate is high and this feels okay, or, Hey, my heart rate is high and it really doesn't feel safe and okay, I can slow down, I can take a rest. Rest is a really big part of joyful movement, even though in the word it's like movement, of course, but rest is included in that. So that's kind of my definition. And I will say a big reason why I do focus so much on it as a trainer is because I think there's a severe lack of it. There's plenty of accounts plenty of things that like, tap into this idea of like hard work hustling, grinding. And that's probably something that we're familiar with, especially from like the athletics world because, hey, you're you're trying to as an athlete, you're trying to like, perform and perfect this art or this skill of your sport, like that totally makes sense. We see it in the Olympics. But that doesn't really make sense to apply to somebody who's just trying to move for like their general health, aka like, well being Mental Health Connection community, those things will not necessarily apply. Maybe for someone who like derives meaning and motivation and joy from competition. 100% Joyful movement could be training for a competition training for a race having that end goal, or that larger purpose. And so I see that with some of my clients are like, oh, I want to like, do this, I want to push myself out of my comfort zone. And that's cool. And then for some of us, competition is like really intimidating, or it doesn't really provide that, you know, drive or push or whatever you want to call it, because it's like, well, now it's just introducing more and more of that like comparing myself to others, comparing myself to my past self of like, I used to be able to do this, and now I can't. And so then that kind of strips away the joy again out of it. So joyful movement, again, kind of stripped it back to that innate feeling like I've described with like children or like, you know, pets, I've even feel like plants kind of do it on their own way. I was watching some stuff about fungi, mushrooms and stuff. And I was like, they move to in their own like unique ways, it's really cool. But they there is a lot less like thinking and planning done with that kind of movement. And there is a lot more presence and a lot more freedom associated with that kind of movement. That doesn't mean that joyful movement has to be the only movement that you do doesn't mean joyful movement is like only gentle staff have like your can only like, gently sway or like do yoga or take walks, that can totally be part of it. But for a lot of us, it can also mean like doing really hard lifting or doing a hard sprint up a hill where you can really feel alive and feel your lungs and heart beating, or feel your strength or your power some people really love like stuff like jujitsu, or like boxing or something. And so we all have our zones of joy. Just like we might have different preferences around like movies that we like, or music that we like, there's nothing wrong with someone who likes a horror movie and someone who likes a comedy like they're both equally art and equally interesting. But just different people and different personalities. So joyful movements gonna look different in practice for everyone. But ultimately, we're putting your enjoyment and your pleasure at the forefront.

Erin Judge: That's awesome. That's a great definition. And what would that look like then as a trainer? Because you'd mentioned you know, it's not always planned, maybe there's some intentionality to like certain types of movement that you incorporate. But what does that look like for like your clients? Like, how do you actually incorporate that into the planning part of it?

Barb Puzanovova: Yeah, that's been the most interesting part. Because at the end of the day, my movement teaching kind of centers around strength training, I love teaching people the basics of moving their body through space, and building that strength and that like stability, kind of feeling, not only to mention, like all the research that shows that strength training, like twice a week, full body, etc. It's like super helpful for us. But what we can do is then sprinkle in that like tuning in words throughout the whole session. So not only do I check in with them before, like, how's your body feeling? What is your body feel like it needs today. And sometimes people aren't super sure in the beginning. So we'll kind of have a plan as we go through, we'll have our sets will or we'll have our warmup we'll have our sets will kind of rest in between and talk about how things felt if there needs to be any adjustment. Like, hey, maybe 12 reps felt like too much. Or maybe this weight felt like too much. Or maybe it felt like too little, maybe someone sometimes under sells themselves and feels like hey, this actually felt like maybe a two out of 10 on the difficulty scale want to be like, hey, in that case, if we want it to feel like a six or a seven out of 10 Do you feel comfortable like moving up in weight and seeing what that feels like? So we'll play around with that. There's clearly a lot of questions being asked. There's a lot of curiosity instead of a lot of like prescriptive stuff of like, hey, now we're gonna hit it hard and do this than the other. Because as I'm training someone or working with someone, I something to all that I always keep in mind. It's like I don't know what that person's body feels like in that moment, I don't have that cool, like telepathy going on with my clients. I wish I did. But I have to ask questions. And then sometimes they even notice that they haven't been paying attention to how their body feels during that movement. So being able to kind of rewind and say, like, you know what, I wasn't really sure how I was breathing during that movement. Let me check in again, or maybe was I not breathing? Was I holding my breath the whole time. So there's a lot of questions being asked, and there are totally sessions where I have a plan kind of in place in mind. And a client will come in and say, like, hey, my low back hurts really bad. So can we do something that's going to either help with that, or maybe they're like, I'm really stressed out, or I slept like crap last night, or any number of things were just like, I'm not feeling super good. I will give them the option to just like, have a time where we can just slow down, do some breathing, I've totally taken a walk with someone before just to like, get outside, get some sunshine, not have to think a whole bunch about, you know, coordinating or limbs together in space. And that's always allowed. So it's really interesting to see how sessions develop, some people will kind of just like, kind of follow the plan with little tweaks. And some people will need that adjustment so that you can start to trust your body in the present moment, because that's the kind of funny and weird part about you know, working with a trainer is like, you don't know, when you're planning that session, or putting that in your calendar and saying, Hey, at Tuesday at 3pm, I'm going to have this session, but you have no idea how you're going to feel actually once Tuesday at 3pm rolls around. So that's why we create that flexibility so that you have the opportunity to practice some like all or something thinking instead of all or nothing thinking where it's like, either I'm going to hit it hard in this session, or I'm just not going to go. You can show up and see what might work for you that day.

Erin Judge: That's awesome. And definitely radical, right? Because it's like not what we typically see, especially in places where you have a trainer present, I think a lot of people sign up for training for accountability, that word, you know, or like, oh, I you know, I'm going to this to get this specific exercise in versus, you know, checking in with what I need, how I feel which that's more sustainable, right? And so you're teaching skills that are sustainable, that if you are hiking at 80 years old, you know, how do you like check in and adjust, which is I see that I'm a long term thinker. So I always see myself kind of hiking that mountain that eight year whenever I'm retired. And it motivates me, but that's funny, because it's we're all so different. And I get there by doing the spreads and things like that, can I do this now I'm gonna get there and around 80. But what you mentioned with trust, like that is a big part of what we see with this whole gut community. So I work with IBS digestive disorders, since a lot of who listened to this specific podcast, but movement is tense, and can be even more just kind of mind works than we even see within like the diet culture world. And a big part of it is that we do know like high intensity exercise can trigger symptoms. It's shown right stress response. And so the amount of intensity is different for each person, but it can happen. And so with people who are experiencing IBS, specifically, there's going to be like, for trust and movement, because they may know that or maybe they've experienced that and have had like a not so great experience where they've had more of a stomach ache after moving their bodies or which when exercise class and, you know, had an accident, like that's happened or they've had to run out or, you know, all of these experiences have happened. And so a lot of times, people who are dealing with digestive issues they do just avoid it altogether. On the spectrum. Do you see this in your work at all? Like even and maybe other medical conditions or with like, fatigue or you know, whatever it may be? And if so, like what would you really encourage people to do or what have you found as work during the kind of re-claiming that trust?

Barb Puzanovova: Yeah, 100% see folks with all kinds of other stuff going on. And I think that's when like, I don't know, like listening to your body sounds like the easiest thing and or like the most vague thing, like how do I do that I always describe listening to your body sometimes as being a practice of like, if you have that one like random manual watch that you like left somewhere like 10 years ago in the back of a closet and an old backpack and it's like beeping because it has that alarm at nine o'clock for some reason still, and you're like, where's that beeping coming from? And then the process of listening to your body is like that process of trying to find where that sound is coming from and like what is going on? And so many of us just want to kind of like plug our ears and just be like Nope, this is what I've been taught is just like ignore whatever that beeping is. is, and I'm just going to push through. And I think a lot of you know, traditional fitness still encourages us to do that, which is a huge disservice. I can imagine for folks with IBS, also PCOS, like so many other conditions. And so we leave out a lot of like chronically ill marginalized folks, disabled folks, like, it's pretty ridiculous. And so when your standard is just like someone who has, like, no problems at all is like totally able, bodied, and neurotypical, and blah, blah, blah, like, you should be able to function, just like anyone else, quote, unquote, should function and it's like, You're not leaving room for kind of the the reality of the human experience of just like, oh, shoot, I need to like rent to the bathroom, or, oh, shoot, I need to modify this, or oh, shoot, this doesn't work for my body. And something that I've seen come up time and time, again, is people with the experience that they've been, let's say, in like a group fitness class of some sort. And the instructor made them feel bad, you know, intentionally or unintentionally doesn't matter, but made them feel bad or ashamed, or guilty for their body doing what it does. And made them feel like taking the modification as the weak thing, or lowering the intensity is the lazy thing, or is the cop out or is the, you know, you're kind of like sandbagging it, there's so many terms that come up when I'm just like, but we're, that's exactly how you start to listen to your body is to, again, follow that beeping noise somewhere in the back, and learn to trust that that's the right decision, instead of just plugging your ears and saying, Well, I should just push through anyway, because my body is wrong, or it's not functioning as it should be. So screw it, I'm just going to like, follow whatever this instructor is telling me because I'm gonna let them down otherwise. And I just think we're doing such a disservice when we teach things like modifications being like, Oh, well, if you have to go, then I guess you can take the jump out of this. And it's like, Wait a second. Like, I think about the probably one of the most hated things. Well, number one being running number two, probably burpees. I'm sure there's many other ones, but they tend to be kind of on the higher side, or it's like, yeah, like I do not like those. And I think it's because we haven't been taught that like a slower run is okay, or like a run walk still counts, or that like a burpee without the jump, or inclining our hands instead of having to go all the way to the floor, all of those still count, they're still going to probably get our heart rate up in some way, or still going to work and move our body in some way. And it's also the instructors job to be able to quickly figure out what's still going to get kind of quote, unquote, the desired effect, or the something that's somewhat similar, but that's going to work for your body better. I describe it kind of like, when we start to teach folks or when we start to learn that, hey, maybe clothes should fit our body and not our bodies fit our clothes, like maybe we should just find the size that's appropriate for us or the fit that's appropriate for us. And that feels good and exercises the same way. Like, I just need to find the the exercise or the version of the movement that feels good for me, in my body, that's right here right now. Instead of trying to like, I don't know, work my body into something that it is not, like in this moment, like, yeah, my body right now is probably not going to do like, I don't know, a pistol squat or something like, no, it's probably not going to be there. If though the cool thing about movement is it is a skill. And if at some point we want to work towards something, there's probably a very slow and progressive way to get there. But also, if the desire is not there, I'll have clients who are like I never cared to do a pull up, I'm like, totally cool with never doing one, I'm like cool, then we're not going to necessarily work towards it. I'll still work on grip strength, I'll still work on pulling movements because it's great for shoulder health, etc, etc. But like we don't have to worry about working towards the goal that we don't care about. I'm not going to try to like magician this like desire out of you because it's not necessary either. So I feel like when we expand on, on our definition of what what movement can really be for us and how it can serve us instead of like, punish us or truly like not make us feel good at the end of the day and knowing that you know, if it makes us feel worse, that doesn't mean that the movement is better. Like if we sweat more have a higher heart rate or almost pass out and puke or whatever, like or gap, any number of things and that doesn't meaning that it was better or same with soreness, like just because it makes us really sore afterwards doesn't make that movement better. And there's like actual research for that soreness is just a measure of like, Hey, your muscles were not used to doing this thing. And then you suddenly did this thing. And now your muscles have not adapted to it just yet. And that's all that means. I consider myself fairly active, I do string trading multiple times a week. But if I did something like horseback riding, my inner thighs will be smoked, because I just haven't practiced that. And that's not because I'm not strong, it just means I'm doing something totally new. So it makes sense that the same thing is gonna happen with other bodies, too.

Erin Judge: Absolutely. And that autonomy, I think, is something that we just don't, you don't learn, especially in group fitness, I think there's so many positives to group fitness because of community. Because of, you know, it's fun. And like, there's usually a pattern or flow or something excited on, like, you know, I taught group fitness for a while too, and it was just as fun. But the autonomy can easily get lost. If it's not, me, there's no space made for it. And so I think a lot of people do feel embarrassed to step out or take a breath, or, you know, stop or whatever it may be even it's like, it's your body, your body, like you have autonomy, to do whatever you need to do. But then knowing what to do is hard. What would you say those who do have fear of movement, whether that be, I don't know how my body is going to feel? Or maybe someone who hasn't been moving for a long time, they're like, I had an injury once or for me, fell on a box jump once, and it scarred me for life. So anytime I do something I know, I don't know, I don't really know how to do it. What what types of strategies do you typically use and kind of mentioned progression, progressive movement, or progressive steps? What would you use for someone who does have fear, but they're like wanting to explore learn how things might feel in their body?

Barb Puzanovova: Yeah, so I really do recommend either hiring a trainer or finding other resources, because those can be really invaluable. And I'm, you know, saying that with kind of a wink in my eye of like, yeah, not everyone's going to be able to have hiring a personal trainer, like accessible in their budget. And so I want to be very clear that there are still are ways to kind of still get some feedback, or some just ideas and resources to make sure like, Hey, if you have questions around, like, how do I hold a kettlebell? Or how do I like squat, if my low back is hurting? Or if my knees are caving in? Like, what, what can I kind of do here. And that's the beauty of Instagram, sometimes, as much as I like, there's pros and cons to it always. It can be a wonderful free resource. Same with YouTube, and all that jazz. So I always recommend kind of working with someone that can guide you. And I always say that with a bit of a caveat of like, you know, trainers, like myself will have a general understanding of how bodies work. But there will still be individualized things where you know, how your body works. And you need to kind of meet in the middle of like, what works for you and what they know about bodies in general? And how can you meet in the middle about that. So it can be helpful to have that like, kind of like back and forth. And that mutual conversation and discussion around like, This feels good, this doesn't feel good. Let's try this. And so you can also do that with yourself. I definitely did that with myself for many years of just like videoing myself, and like giving myself feedback or seeing like, Oh, this is interesting. Why does my body feel like this when I do that. Another thing that I would say can be helpful if there is fear around movement is truly starting small. And also having like a journal so that you can kind of just gently track I know, track can sound like really icky. I know it does for me, but track or just consider it like data gathering or reflection because our brains will do this really fun thing where it only remembers the bad stuff, where it's like, oh, remember that time that I jacked up my ankle doing this, that and the other? Or, you know, remember how that was just so awful going to that group in this class? And do you remember those because that's information to just like, oh, remember when I went to that place, and that trainer was like a real shithead to me, it does happen. And so then you can use that information and be like, hey, maybe let's not go into that kind of studio again, let's kind of make sure that they aligned with my values, that they're inclusive, that they're welcoming, that they're adjustable. You know, they treat their members with like compassion and respect. That's important to me. So like use that information but also use information of like, hey, when I took this 10 minute walk outside and it was beautiful outside and I had my podcast in or I was with my dog or with a buddy all of these little details and then like oh, I felt good after that. situation or like my stomach felt okay, then use that information so that you can repeat it in the future. So you don't have to like wrack your brain and use all these brain cells at the end of the day or at six in the morning, or whenever you're trying to move to something come up with like a novel idea, it's totally okay to just repeat things that have felt good in the past. And then also leave some room for exploration to I think this is my favorite part, when you do have the capacity to kind of like nudge outside of your comfort zone to try something different and like expand your definition of what movement can be. So I think about like laser tag, I think about like ice skating, I think about all sorts of like random stuff that we don't always think about when we think about like exercise, I feel like we've kind of narrowed our scope down to like running, yoga, CrossFit. That's it, and nothing else. So really kind of getting curious, I even saw on a list. It was like geocaching and stuff like that. I was like, Cool. I've never thought of that. But here we are. So using that extra time when when you want to like add some flavor to it to take some time to explore. And that could truly be like combining like an adventurous like exploration of your city or your neighborhood. And like adding movement into the mix of it. So that movement isn't technically like the main thing. But it's kind of like a, I don't know, like a side dish of the whole experience where it's like, oh, we're gonna do like a crawl. And we're getting into appetizers here and like a main meal here, whatever, that could be cool. So So I am doing movement now, instead of just being like movements can be incorporated in some way, in a way that feels fun and interesting to me. So hiring someone or getting some resources, staying in your comfort zone, and kind of like also journaling what feels good. And also what feels bad if you feel compelled to kind of be like, hey, maybe let's not repeat that, because that feels like that had an opposite effect on me. And then exploring things that do feel good or feel novel and interesting, because we want to chase after the carrot instead of escaping the stick. That is the better way, in my opinion to do it.

Erin Judge: Yeah, those are great tips. I think that kind of challenges that thought of like, it's not worth it, right? It's only 10 minutes, it's not worth it when, like you mentioned at the beginning, like our bodies were meant to just be in motion and move and like we're meant to be able to like walk from one place to another and enjoy ourselves or, you know, go through the city and explore something new or whatever it may be like our bodies are meant to do that they're not meant to do a 30 minute CrossFit workout. We don't have to do that. It's like we had it then you can build off you know straight to do those things in a better way, which I know you've done. I've seen your client that you've shared on on Instagram of hula hooping, right of like building skills to Hulu, or those fun things that people can do. And it's like, we sometimes forget that movement doesn't have to be like, Oh, I do, you know, three sets of 10 reps of all, like whatever it may be of all of these different things. It could be, oh no, I'm developing these muscle groups to be able to do this activity that I really want to do and have fun with like, or whatever. A lot of our clients love just dance and then even like virtual reality, things like that fun way to like move body parts and also not feel like okay, um, you know, I like lifting weights too, but it's like, not everyone enjoys that and so it's like finding things is always really fun and even yoga it's like we you know, recommend that not traditional yoga was like to practice that of like, you know, not like traditional yoga, but those types of flows and stretches and alignment based exercise like that's so great for IBS. Some people don't do it, it's like there's some fun ways of doing it, where you can write like different types of music or flow types or jokes. Different trainers have different things that they incorporate and it's always fun to explore that too. You never know like what you might enjoy over what you know other people will and like you can still reach the goal by doing it in your own way. I that was running I love to run I say that a lot but I like doing it my own way. I don't want to go you know someone else's way because not as fun as my own. Kind of along the lines of like tracking one big piece that's my last major question for you is like relationship to body with you mentioned that like you didn't have you know a negative relationship with exercise necessarily your own background, but I know that you wasted a lot with even IVs and health anything revolving awareness is that sometimes awareness can also open up the door for awareness of things you may not really want to be aware of right? If you're starting to eggs Besides, there is an increase of like, connection to your body. And for some people, especially those with digestive issues that I've seen it with, you know, body image, body dysmorphia, whatever it may be, I'm sure probably maybe like those who are disabled, like, you start to notice maybe your limitations, you know, insecurities. You notice, like, if you have a mirror president, right, if like, I'm looking at my alignment, but I'm also noticing this thing that maybe I don't love to see right now. What have you noticed with that? And, you know, how has movement? And what are some like ways if you if you know of any, where you can kind of utilize movements almost improve the relationship to the body and kind of navigate those thoughts that could come along the way?

Barb Puzanovova: Yeah, that's a really great point. Because I feel like a lot of times when you start to make that shift from how to, you know, movement to, you know, how does my body look to movement for how does my body feel, sometimes the like, phrase of like, Oh, look at what your body can do is not actually super empowering for people. This was introduced to me, like I, my brain exploded by a, like, disabled advocate. And I was like, oh, that's like, super fucking smart. And I didn't think of it that way. Because that's how I thought of moving. I'm just like, oh, this is so cool. I feel like when I can tune in words to like what my body can do right now, that feels really empowering for me. But when our bodies can't do the thing, or again, like can't do what they used to do, or not in the same way, or it feels harder, it can start to feel really like disempowering, pretty quickly. It's very easy for that shame spiral to set in. And so I think about, you know, especially with clients that, again, I encourage them to, like, have the choice to say like, Hey, do you want to do that challenging thing that's like outside of your comfort zone? Or do you want to do something that you feel like more confident in or at least it feels tolerable to you to kind of do this movement instead. And that doesn't mean that like, every single time, it's, you know, from a training perspective, it's going to be like, perfect, and well rounded, and this and that, but some days, we just need to do stuff that makes us not feel worse, instead of just like, oh, this is, you know, challenging, and you're not great at it. But like, let's just do a whole bunch of those movements. I think on days when we're more tired, like balancing movements might be extra challenging. And so it's like, yeah, maybe my body can't do that right now. And that's not going to feel super great. Or like, I'm aware of like bloating as I'm kind of like bopping around or walking or something. It's like, How can I be gentle to this body? And how can I use movement to like, support myself in this moment, I even think of like allergies, like, I'll have like, my sinus stuff is happening. And I'm like, my body feels like crap. Like, I don't, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, like, it doesn't feel great. And so I think about, like, how can I use movement or things that are not movement to support my body right now? Like, how can I care for her in a way that feels good, instead of trying to force like a round peg into a square hole kind of thing, where it's just like, this may not be the thing that I need to be doing right now. And I feel like sometimes we forget that that's an option. Just like, yeah, maybe we don't need to do anything at all, or we need to do like, a smidge. You know, like a movement snack where we literally just do something for like a minute or two and then like that, is it that counts, that's the cap. And we can move on with our lives. We don't have to kind of finagle our ways into like, how do I convince myself into doing this 30 minute workout that I had planned or on on my planner? Maybe sometimes we just need to be flexible with that. I wonder if that answers your question a little bit?

Erin Judge: No, definitely say that. Open communication, we kind of talked about that in our practice a lot of like, communication with your body and not necessarily labeling it as good or bad communication, but using those thoughts of like, okay, what, what could that mean? Like if I you know, have that dysmorphia, or feel a certain way, or even have like a quote unquote, negative thought about myself that may be true or self serving or kind, but like, How can I still be honest with myself and have that thought and like explore that thought and that movement? I think sometimes we forget that that's an option too, because of the autonomy was taken away. And I that is a good point, because I don't think about that, as often too, is like a very able bodied person. It's like, what can I do? I do want to be hiking when I'm 80 or someone you know, may not be able to say that and like their thoughts may be different. And you know, I said something that to my clients, like they just want to get out of bed. It's like, hey, you know, if you're not training for a marathon, right, you're, you're just trying to to survive and like live and you know, get up, get up and move forward and whatever it may be. It's like, that's not your goal, right? now and you know, having those, those thoughts are really important. And then if you are having them, communicating them to your trainer or working with someone who had asked this question, and that being said, you know, if anyone is listening in, they're like, Oh, I connect to what you're saying, I want to start moving and like that feels safe for me. And that feels like that would connect with me, how could they work with you? And what would that look like?

Barb Puzanovova: So there are currently one of two ways to work with me. One is one on one training, I do virtual and in person, the waitlist is currently kind of long, that's on me, but also people are awesome, so I would recommend signing up for that, if that is something you're really interested in. And if for some reason you're like I want to get in earlier, my Instagram also has a bunch of other trainers that I generally refer to or again, also weight neutral and non diet that I would trust for that kind of thing. As well as some gyms, there's a handful of gyms that I would trust with this kind of approach.

The other one is the joyful movement program that I developed back in 2020. It's going to run round number nine in mid May, we'll start our first call then in 2022. So I'm really excited for that. It's kind of like a seasonal thing that I run. So I feel like it's really nice to have a different round for each season. So it can kind of experience it in different times of the year. And especially I feel like as summer approaches, I already feel my skin crawling with all the diet stuff, so I'm really excited for the summer one for sure.

Erin Judge: Absolutely, that's exciting! So if you are looking for that kind of support, we'll involve that in shownotes for you, so you can check it out. And you can also follow Barb on social media, which is a fun way to even start changing thoughts and challenging maybe some thoughts before and like you mentioned, it's not a bad thing for you to move how you want to move. But I think we all benefit from challenging some of the thoughts that we have. Because you might be in that athlete mindset, you might do CrossFit, and compete in the competition. And that's not bad. But it's also good to challenge like, what is the purpose of this for me? Or like, what does this look like? Or what do other people think? And what am I projecting on people? It's something you can learn from your social media, too, is like, am I projecting my view of what this should look like? Even on my clients where there is prescription on this is like, Okay, this movement has been shown now, but this these stretches can help with a gas, you know, release or whatever. And it's like, oh, wait, maybe I should rethink how I even say that. Because, like, how do I put it back into their hands to be able to choose how they do that or incorporate that or, you know, make it more fun for them or whatever it may be, like always good to challenge that. Yeah, last thing you want to share before we go.

Barb Puzanovova: Nothing other than just move with more joy and less rules. Speaking of prescriptive things, I was just thinking before I went on to talk with you about how it's so easy as a trainer and as an Enneagram one perhaps to be somebody who just wants to swoop in and check the all the things and fix all the things and tell you like oh my gosh, you're struggling with this. Let's fix it this way. And knowing that you know what makes you feel good. It might take some practice, but you get to figure out what kind of guidelines you want to put in place instead of rules that even I tell folks to kind of like consider. Because I feel like when we replace one rule with another rule, we're back in a safe space.

Erin Judge: Good thought to share good wisdom that we can all work on together. Thank you so much, I really enjoyed our conversation and appreciate you giving your time.

Barb Puzanovova: Thanks for having me!